A reminder

I have nothing to do with the management of this list and I expect that what
I say here will get me moderated.

There have been a couple of posts recently where people seem to think that
this is a service which they are paying for.

It isn’t.

This isn’t even a list supporting an open source project (where the
expectations are that because you haven’t paid for it, and it probably has
bad documentation, the developers will answer questions)

People who answer in this group have other jobs, they fill in here as and
when they can. But remember that what is happening here is free an for
free you get what you pay for. The answer may not be correct (although the
community dynamic will usually see that it is), but it certainly won’t be on
any schedule.

The people who answer here have usually been where the questioners are and
want to help. But they are under no obligation.
The people who answer here also understand the restrictions that for many of
the readership English isn’t the first language, and American isn’t their
culture.
In comparison to some open source lists, the people who answer here are also
quite polite.

But when it comes to it, this is still a free service. Offered by techies
for techies (with the support of OSR of course, who need again to be thanks
for hosting this list)

If you *need* answers and *have* to have them on a timescale, there are
plenty of people who can do this for you, but that will cost money.

Meanwhile NTFSD is still (IMO) the best place to go for information about
NTFS file systems issues. We’ll help if we can, but don’t chastise us,
don’t make demands, because it puts people off and you will find that you
get less back rather than more back.

Rod

I have been wanting to say something of the kind several times - in a far less tolerant language, and so I
refrained from doing so. (yes, my saying “Renegotiate a project with correct terms; the ones that you can do” in yet
another “how do I make a fast encryption engine” is quite polite compared to what sits in my Drafts folder for this
list, waiting for the wrong question ;))

The list is not a place where your projects will get written for you - it is a place where people will likely
help you with minor obstacles that they have overcome in their work. But asking for a passage at every obstacle is
asking for your projects to be written for you. Asking for passage at a major obstacle is plain rude.

Rod Widdowson wrote:

I have nothing to do with the management of this list and I expect that what
I say here will get me moderated.

There have been a couple of posts recently where people seem to think that
this is a service which they are paying for.

It isn’t.

This isn’t even a list supporting an open source project (where the
expectations are that because you haven’t paid for it, and it probably has
bad documentation, the developers will answer questions)

People who answer in this group have other jobs, they fill in here as and
when they can. But remember that what is happening here is free an for
free you get what you pay for. The answer may not be correct (although the
community dynamic will usually see that it is), but it certainly won’t be on
any schedule.

The people who answer here have usually been where the questioners are and
want to help. But they are under no obligation.
The people who answer here also understand the restrictions that for many of
the readership English isn’t the first language, and American isn’t their
culture.
In comparison to some open source lists, the people who answer here are also
quite polite.

But when it comes to it, this is still a free service. Offered by techies
for techies (with the support of OSR of course, who need again to be thanks
for hosting this list)

If you *need* answers and *have* to have them on a timescale, there are
plenty of people who can do this for you, but that will cost money.

Meanwhile NTFSD is still (IMO) the best place to go for information about
NTFS file systems issues. We’ll help if we can, but don’t chastise us,
don’t make demands, because it puts people off and you will find that you
get less back rather than more back.

Rod


Kind regards, Dejan (MSN support: xxxxx@alfasp.com)
http://www.alfasp.com
File system audit, security and encryption kits.

OSR moderators should introduce a ‘Like’ feature for threads like this :slight_smile:

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Dejan Maksimovic wrote:

>
> I have been wanting to say something of the kind several times - in a
> far less tolerant language, and so I
> refrained from doing so. (yes, my saying “Renegotiate a project with
> correct terms; the ones that you can do” in yet
> another “how do I make a fast encryption engine” is quite polite compared
> to what sits in my Drafts folder for this
> list, waiting for the wrong question ;))
>
> The list is not a place where your projects will get written for you -
> it is a place where people will likely
> help you with minor obstacles that they have overcome in their work. But
> asking for a passage at every obstacle is
> asking for your projects to be written for you. Asking for passage at a
> major obstacle is plain rude.
>
>
> Rod Widdowson wrote:
>
> > I have nothing to do with the management of this list and I expect that
> what
> > I say here will get me moderated.
> >
> > There have been a couple of posts recently where people seem to think
> that
> > this is a service which they are paying for.
> >
> > It isn’t.
> >
> > This isn’t even a list supporting an open source project (where the
> > expectations are that because you haven’t paid for it, and it probably
> has
> > bad documentation, the developers will answer questions)
> >
> > People who answer in this group have other jobs, they fill in here as and
> > when they can. But remember that what is happening here is free an for
> > free you get what you pay for. The answer may not be correct (although
> the
> > community dynamic will usually see that it is), but it certainly won’t be
> on
> > any schedule.
> >
> > The people who answer here have usually been where the questioners are
> and
> > want to help. But they are under no obligation.
> > The people who answer here also understand the restrictions that for many
> of
> > the readership English isn’t the first language, and American isn’t their
> > culture.
> > In comparison to some open source lists, the people who answer here are
> also
> > quite polite.
> >
> > But when it comes to it, this is still a free service. Offered by
> techies
> > for techies (with the support of OSR of course, who need again to be
> thanks
> > for hosting this list)
> >
> > If you need answers and have to have them on a timescale, there are
> > plenty of people who can do this for you, but that will cost money.
> >
> > Meanwhile NTFSD is still (IMO) the best place to go for information about
> > NTFS file systems issues. We’ll help if we can, but don’t chastise us,
> > don’t make demands, because it puts people off and you will find that you
> > get less back rather than more back.
> >
> > Rod
>
> –
> Kind regards, Dejan (MSN support: xxxxx@alfasp.com)
> http://www.alfasp.com
> File system audit, security and encryption kits.
>
>
>
> —
> NTFSD is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of debugging and file system seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>



- amitr0

While I agree with Rod, a like feature is a really stupid idea. Just
take a look at the low quality of the Microsoft forums, where giving the
right answer is considered by many second to make the OP happy. That
type of approach produces crap, and in the end delivers to this forum
request for help since the poster promised a full featured file system
in a month.

Don Burn (MVP, Windows DKD)
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

“amitr0” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntfsd:

> OSR moderators should introduce a ‘Like’ feature for threads like this :slight_smile:
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Dejan Maksimovic wrote:
>
> >
> > I have been wanting to say something of the kind several times - in a
> > far less tolerant language, and so I
> > refrained from doing so. (yes, my saying “Renegotiate a project with
> > correct terms; the ones that you can do” in yet
> > another “how do I make a fast encryption engine” is quite polite compared
> > to what sits in my Drafts folder for this
> > list, waiting for the wrong question ;))
> >
> > The list is not a place where your projects will get written for you -
> > it is a place where people will likely
> > help you with minor obstacles that they have overcome in their work. But
> > asking for a passage at every obstacle is
> > asking for your projects to be written for you. Asking for passage at a
> > major obstacle is plain rude.
> >
> >
> > Rod Widdowson wrote:
> >
> > > I have nothing to do with the management of this list and I expect that
> > what
> > > I say here will get me moderated.
> > >
> > > There have been a couple of posts recently where people seem to think
> > that
> > > this is a service which they are paying for.
> > >
> > > It isn’t.
> > >
> > > This isn’t even a list supporting an open source project (where the
> > > expectations are that because you haven’t paid for it, and it probably
> > has
> > > bad documentation, the developers will answer questions)
> > >
> > > People who answer in this group have other jobs, they fill in here as and
> > > when they can. But remember that what is happening here is free an for
> > > free you get what you pay for. The answer may not be correct (although
> > the
> > > community dynamic will usually see that it is), but it certainly won’t be
> > on
> > > any schedule.
> > >
> > > The people who answer here have usually been where the questioners are
> > and
> > > want to help. But they are under no obligation.
> > > The people who answer here also understand the restrictions that for many
> > of
> > > the readership English isn’t the first language, and American isn’t their
> > > culture.
> > > In comparison to some open source lists, the people who answer here are
> > also
> > > quite polite.
> > >
> > > But when it comes to it, this is still a free service. Offered by
> > techies
> > > for techies (with the support of OSR of course, who need again to be
> > thanks
> > > for hosting this list)
> > >
> > > If you need answers and have to have them on a timescale, there are
> > > plenty of people who can do this for you, but that will cost money.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile NTFSD is still (IMO) the best place to go for information about
> > > NTFS file systems issues. We’ll help if we can, but don’t chastise us,
> > > don’t make demands, because it puts people off and you will find that you
> > > get less back rather than more back.
> > >
> > > Rod
> >
> > –
> > Kind regards, Dejan (MSN support: xxxxx@alfasp.com)
> > http://www.alfasp.com
> > File system audit, security and encryption kits.
> >
> >
> >
> > —
> > NTFSD is sponsored by OSR
> >
> > For our schedule of debugging and file system seminars visit:
> > http://www.osr.com/seminars
> >
> > To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> > http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
> >
>
>
>
> –
>
> - amitr0

Dejan,

You would actually be surprised what I have let simmer in the drafts folder and then hit delete. Unfortunately I sometimes do not let them simmer long enough in drafts.

Gary G. Little

----- Original Message -----
From: “Dejan Maksimovic”
To: “Windows File Systems Devs Interest List”
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 4:18:45 AM
Subject: Re: [ntfsd] A reminder

I have been wanting to say something of the kind several times - in a far less tolerant language, and so I
refrained from doing so. (yes, my saying “Renegotiate a project with correct terms; the ones that you can do” in yet
another “how do I make a fast encryption engine” is quite polite compared to what sits in my Drafts folder for this
list, waiting for the wrong question ;))

The list is not a place where your projects will get written for you - it is a place where people will likely
help you with minor obstacles that they have overcome in their work. But asking for a passage at every obstacle is
asking for your projects to be written for you. Asking for passage at a major obstacle is plain rude.

Rod Widdowson wrote:

> I have nothing to do with the management of this list and I expect that what
> I say here will get me moderated.
>
> There have been a couple of posts recently where people seem to think that
> this is a service which they are paying for.
>
> It isn’t.
>
> This isn’t even a list supporting an open source project (where the
> expectations are that because you haven’t paid for it, and it probably has
> bad documentation, the developers will answer questions)
>
> People who answer in this group have other jobs, they fill in here as and
> when they can. But remember that what is happening here is free an for
> free you get what you pay for. The answer may not be correct (although the
> community dynamic will usually see that it is), but it certainly won’t be on
> any schedule.
>
> The people who answer here have usually been where the questioners are and
> want to help. But they are under no obligation.
> The people who answer here also understand the restrictions that for many of
> the readership English isn’t the first language, and American isn’t their
> culture.
> In comparison to some open source lists, the people who answer here are also
> quite polite.
>
> But when it comes to it, this is still a free service. Offered by techies
> for techies (with the support of OSR of course, who need again to be thanks
> for hosting this list)
>
> If you need answers and have to have them on a timescale, there are
> plenty of people who can do this for you, but that will cost money.
>
> Meanwhile NTFSD is still (IMO) the best place to go for information about
> NTFS file systems issues. We’ll help if we can, but don’t chastise us,
> don’t make demands, because it puts people off and you will find that you
> get less back rather than more back.
>
> Rod


Kind regards, Dejan (MSN support: xxxxx@alfasp.com)
http://www.alfasp.com
File system audit, security and encryption kits.


NTFSD is sponsored by OSR

For our schedule of debugging and file system seminars visit:
http://www.osr.com/seminars

To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer

I don’t think you’re saying anything that all of us don’t feel from time to
time. I’m not sure where this culture of, “you must answer my questions NOW
and if not I will repeatedly bump the post by whining” comes from, but it’s
certainly annoying. It demonstrates a major lack of engineering discipline
as well as a lack of respect to the more experienced engineers on the list,
which is very anti the engineering culture and leaves a sour taste in
people’s mouths (I’ve only been in the field for 11 years and I’m offended,
so I can imagine how others with much more experience than I have feel).

Unfortunately, posts like Rod’s fall on deaf ears. I absolutely agree with
everything here, though I’m not the one that needs convincing :slight_smile: The current
crop of whiners will probably be silenced for a while, but then we’ll go
through this all over again.

For my own sanity I’ve just taken to ignoring anyone that starts demanding
an answer. Even if I’m interested in the question I don’t bother getting
involved, likely they’ll end up requiring far too much involvement and not
be happy with the sort of sporadic responses I can afford to do here.

We generally require that offenses be particularly egregious in order to
justify banning, but it’s an option if someone repeatedly tries to berate
people into answering. It just creates noise on what is generally a list
that is rich in content. Then they can take their questions to the OTHER
lists about FS development on Windows (oh, wait…).

Lastly, to those that don’t get a response to your posts, it’s generally
because it’s too specific, too broad, or people don’t have time. If you
really, REALLY need an answer immediately and you don’t get it, there are
lots of paid options out there. If it’s not critical and just something
you’re trying to work through, wait a few days. If you don’t get a response,
you can always try reformulating your question with new information or
details that you’ve discovered. THIS might get a different response.
However, chastising us and telling us how disappointed you are in us will
just turn you into a troll.

-scott


Scott Noone
Consulting Associate and Chief System Problem Analyst
OSR Open Systems Resources, Inc.
http://www.osronline.com

“Rod Widdowson” wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntfsd…

I have nothing to do with the management of this list and I expect that what
I say here will get me moderated.

There have been a couple of posts recently where people seem to think that
this is a service which they are paying for.

It isn’t.

This isn’t even a list supporting an open source project (where the
expectations are that because you haven’t paid for it, and it probably has
bad documentation, the developers will answer questions)

People who answer in this group have other jobs, they fill in here as and
when they can. But remember that what is happening here is free an for
free you get what you pay for. The answer may not be correct (although the
community dynamic will usually see that it is), but it certainly won’t be on
any schedule.

The people who answer here have usually been where the questioners are and
want to help. But they are under no obligation.
The people who answer here also understand the restrictions that for many of
the readership English isn’t the first language, and American isn’t their
culture.
In comparison to some open source lists, the people who answer here are also
quite polite.

But when it comes to it, this is still a free service. Offered by techies
for techies (with the support of OSR of course, who need again to be thanks
for hosting this list)

If you *need* answers and *have* to have them on a timescale, there are
plenty of people who can do this for you, but that will cost money.

Meanwhile NTFSD is still (IMO) the best place to go for information about
NTFS file systems issues. We’ll help if we can, but don’t chastise us,
don’t make demands, because it puts people off and you will find that you
get less back rather than more back.

Rod

Well it certainly doesn’t help newcomers to the site when they can’t post a topic with people like (unmentioned name) jumping in and instead of answering the question, or ignoring the question, they troll the comment and question your motivation behind a concept or project.

I came here hoping to find a simple answer to “is this a feasible project for me” and instead the second poster left a bad taste in MY mouth.

And these are expert guys with apparently so much work to do that they have the time to question my intent on a project?

I will admit, the majority of feedback to the post was great. But SOME individuals who are long time members here, troll themselves and then in the next topic they find, are whining about “we do this in our spare time, and don’t get paid, and just want to help.” Then help, don’t troll someones comments when they ask a question in good faith, looking for help, not a quick solution. Maybe you presume all newcomers to the site are all the same.

Keep it up, you will lose your newcomers and you will be sitting here with nothing to do. Perhaps thats a good reason why in the past few months OSR has lost 10% of new visitor traffic to the site.

Again, this is a great forum with tons of expert opinion and great feedback. One bad troll “expert” who thinks its their prerogative to question ones intent rather than to answer the question will certainly not be of value to the community.

just my opinion though.

> And these are expert guys with apparently so much work to

do that they have the time to question my intent on a
project??

http://www.osronline.com/downloads/pp_asking.pdf

Well said. If you don’t like a question, move on, don’t let your
“nerdostrone” make you act like “I’m too sexy for this group”…

With more knowledge and experience should come wisdom and humility, but
often this is not the case.

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:40 AM, wrote:

> Well it certainly doesn’t help newcomers to the site when they can’t post a
> topic with people like (unmentioned name) jumping in and instead of
> answering the question, or ignoring the question, they troll the comment and
> question your motivation behind a concept or project.
>
> I came here hoping to find a simple answer to “is this a feasible project
> for me” and instead the second poster left a bad taste in MY mouth.
>
> And these are expert guys with apparently so much work to do that they have
> the time to question my intent on a project?
>
> I will admit, the majority of feedback to the post was great. But SOME
> individuals who are long time members here, troll themselves and then in the
> next topic they find, are whining about “we do this in our spare time, and
> don’t get paid, and just want to help.” Then help, don’t troll someones
> comments when they ask a question in good faith, looking for help, not a
> quick solution. Maybe you presume all newcomers to the site are all the
> same.
>
> Keep it up, you will lose your newcomers and you will be sitting here with
> nothing to do. Perhaps thats a good reason why in the past few months OSR
> has lost 10% of new visitor traffic to the site.
>
> Again, this is a great forum with tons of expert opinion and great
> feedback. One bad troll “expert” who thinks its their prerogative to
> question ones intent rather than to answer the question will certainly not
> be of value to the community.
>
> just my opinion though.
>
> —
> NTFSD is sponsored by OSR
>
> For our schedule of debugging and file system seminars visit:
> http://www.osr.com/seminars
>
> To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
> http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
>

There is a good reason we question the intent. (and I was in the poster’s shoes before; I never expected a complete solution to my problems, if they said “don’t do it that way” I listened - of course I expected some explanation, but not far)
Some people have been in this area since they started working, some have more experience for non-technical reasons that others will not be able to gain in their life, regardless of how much they try (think: cooperation, I will say no more about them - I am not among them, unfortunately).

With that experience, they know what can and cannot be done. It’s fine for newcomers to question them (noone is perfect), but the idea is to save newcomers the time he/she would waste on a project that has not been doable by people knowing a lot more in a much greater time frame. They want to use “fast approaches” to “save time”, instead of “renegotiating the correct project with correct terms”… they will “do it right the next project, but
they need to finish it this way now”.
Some have more patience some less. When you see the same questions over and over again… it boils up. Especially when people don’t use a simple search, which would reveal it all.
This is not your typical forum, where you know the bulk of the posts are offtopic, offensive, flame wars, etc. Most people who are here for a long time post only relevant stuff. So ignoring posts is not easy.

Some time ago I was questioning why Don Burn even reacts to posts, asking people to use Search - now I can see why :wink:

xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:

Again, this is a great forum with tons of expert opinion and great feedback. One bad troll “expert” who thinks its their prerogative to question ones intent rather than to answer the question will certainly not be of value to the community.


Kind regards, Dejan (MSN support: xxxxx@alfasp.com)
http://www.alfasp.com
File system audit, security and encryption kits.

Questioning a guy with a machine gun and a grenade in his hand is one thing. Questioning a poster about why they are bothering to attempt something “because it already exists, and you can’t do it better”, is not a solution to anything, it is a trolling comment and out of line, imho for this type of forum. If you can’t control your mindless urge to flame someone, take some pills and go take a break from the forum or go play russian roulette.

I agree with you [in many cases], but that is situationally irrelevant.

After going back and re-reading the original thread on NTDEV, there’s some dual blame here. Your initial post indicated that you would prefer a cooked solution. Gary’s response to this was a bit flippant, but legitimate in pointing out some existing products that might work. Instead of responding rationally that you had already looked into these, the flame war escalated.

So, I’d suggest that we all retreat to neutral corners and blame it on being a case of the Mondays.

In response to Dejan:

Thanks :stuck_out_tongue: (sorry, couldn’t resist!)

I’m going to lock this thread. Further inquiries about this can be sent to me off list.

-scott