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Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys

Bob_KroeterBob_Kroeter Member Posts: 65
32-bit Windows systems with 4GB installed typically do not use all 4GB. Is there a way a driver can utilize the left over memory?
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Comments

  • Doron_HolanDoron_Holan Member - All Emails Posts: 10,379
    No, whatever is not used by the Os has been reserved by the bios

    d

    tiny phone keyboard + fat thumbs = you do the muth



    -----Original Message-----
    From: xxxxx@gmail.com <xxxxx@gmail.com>
    Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:47 PM
    To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List <xxxxx@lists.osr.com>
    Subject: [ntdev] Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys


    32-bit Windows systems with 4GB installed typically do not use all 4GB. Is there a way a driver can utilize the left over memory?


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  • Bob_KroeterBob_Kroeter Member Posts: 65
    Since another device driver on the market is doing it, this is not a an acceptable answer to managment so perhaps undocumented techniques are the way forward.
  • Doron_HolanDoron_Holan Member - All Emails Posts: 10,379
    Why is it so darn important to use that chunk of memory?

    d

    tiny phone keyboard + fat thumbs = you do the muth



    -----Original Message-----
    From: xxxxx@gmail.com <xxxxx@gmail.com>
    Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:02 PM
    To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List <xxxxx@lists.osr.com>
    Subject: RE:[ntdev] Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys


    Since another device driver on the market is doing it, this is not a an acceptable answer to managment so perhaps undocumented techniques are the way forward.


    ---
    NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

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  • Tim_RobertsTim_Roberts Member - All Emails Posts: 12,715
    You wrote:
    >
    >Since another device driver on the market is doing it, this is not a an
    >acceptable answer to managment so perhaps undocumented techniques are the
    >way forward.

    The 32-bit versions of Windows XP and Vista are limited by licensing restrictions to using physical memory below the 4GB mark only. Even if it were possible to use that memory in Windows, it is not necessarily legal.

    The actual size of the PCI hole depends on your BIOS, but is typically a few dozen megabytes. I guess it's up to you to decide whether you want to risk a licensing violation over 25c worth of RAM, especially since people seem to be quickly migrating to 64-bit systems, where this restriction does not exist.
    --
    Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

    Tim Roberts, [email protected]
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

  • Gary_Little-3Gary_Little-3 Member Posts: 1,208
    Ok, so you would rather lie to management and lead them to believe that
    undocumented techniques are the magic yellow brick road, to do something
    that the Microsoft rep that monitors this list said you can't? How forward
    compatible will your "undocumented" techniques be for Win 7.1 or Win 8?
    Undocumented techniques are undocumented for a reason --- the code they are
    based upon, may go away, without any warning, leaving you and all your
    customers holding onto your pipe dream. Not a nice place to be in when all
    you had to do was be truthful with mangement in the first place.

    How do you know those undocumented techniques are the way to solve the
    problem? Perhaps your competitor paid the bucks for the source to build
    their code. If so, dude, you're screwed, since "they" can go places you can
    only guess at and hope someone "undocuments" the next branch on those rather
    pissy colored bricks.

    But, Doron had a question you need to answer --- why is that memory so damn
    important, and precisely WHAT are you trying to do? There just might be, oh
    my god, DOCUMENTED, ways of doing it.

    The personal opinion of
    Gary G. Little

    -----Original Message-----
    From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
    [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
    Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:04 PM
    To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
    Subject: RE:[ntdev] Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys

    Since another device driver on the market is doing it, this is not a an
    acceptable answer to managment so perhaps undocumented techniques are the
    way forward.


    ---
    NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

    For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
    http://www.osr.com/seminars

    To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
    http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer


    __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
    database 4947 (20100315) __________

    The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

    http://www.eset.com



    __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
    database 4947 (20100315) __________

    The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

    http://www.eset.com
  • James_HarperJames_Harper Member Posts: 1,615
    >
    > Ok, so you would rather lie to management and lead them to believe
    that
    > undocumented techniques are the magic yellow brick road, to do
    something
    > that the Microsoft rep that monitors this list said you can't? How
    forward
    > compatible will your "undocumented" techniques be for Win 7.1 or Win
    8?
    > Undocumented techniques are undocumented for a reason --- the code
    they are
    > based upon, may go away, without any warning, leaving you and all your
    > customers holding onto your pipe dream. Not a nice place to be in when
    all
    > you had to do was be truthful with mangement in the first place.
    >
    > How do you know those undocumented techniques are the way to solve the
    > problem? Perhaps your competitor paid the bucks for the source to
    build
    > their code. If so, dude, you're screwed, since "they" can go places
    you can
    > only guess at and hope someone "undocuments" the next branch on those
    rather
    > pissy colored bricks.

    Amen!

    > But, Doron had a question you need to answer --- why is that memory so
    damn
    > important, and precisely WHAT are you trying to do? There just might
    be, oh
    > my god, DOCUMENTED, ways of doing it.
    >

    I think it's a pretty simple matter of numbers. My laptop has 4GB of
    memory installed, yet XP says that it only has 3GB. The top 1GB is
    inaccessible because there is 'stuff' in the way, and presumably it has
    been remapped above the 4GB mark (or it's just not accessible). So on
    the face of it, getting access to that extra 1GB could give you
    effectively 33% more memory.

    My recommendation to the OP is that if memory is so important to you, go
    64 bit. Let your competition have the fun of milking the long tail of
    the 32 bit XP market and go do something else.

    James
  • David_J._CraigDavid_J._Craig Member Posts: 1,885
    There is the obvious solution which Microsoft will love. Just use Server
    2008 x86 where the license restrictions don't exist. Of course the memory
    is still special in some ways, but there are documented ways to use it.


    "Tim Roberts" <xxxxx@probo.com> wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    > You wrote:
    >>
    >>Since another device driver on the market is doing it, this is not a an
    >>acceptable answer to managment so perhaps undocumented techniques are the
    >>way forward.
    >
    > The 32-bit versions of Windows XP and Vista are limited by licensing
    > restrictions to using physical memory below the 4GB mark only. Even if it
    > were possible to use that memory in Windows, it is not necessarily legal.
    >
    > The actual size of the PCI hole depends on your BIOS, but is typically a
    > few dozen megabytes. I guess it's up to you to decide whether you want to
    > risk a licensing violation over 25c worth of RAM, especially since people
    > seem to be quickly migrating to 64-bit systems, where this restriction
    > does not exist.
    > --
    > Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
    > Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
    >
  • Jake_OshinsJake_Oshins Member Posts: 1,058
    Tim and David,

    It is true that client versions of 32-bit Windows are restricted to 4GB of
    physical address space. And you're right, this does appeal to the folks at
    Microsoft who want you to upgrade your OS, or use server OSes.

    But the fundamental reason we chose to limit 32-bit client Windows to 32-bit
    physical addresses was driver compatibility. There are just too many
    drivers in the world that are either lying about their capabilities for
    performance reasons or just skipping the DMA APIs entirely.

    Server OSes don't generally have this problem, as they tend to run mostly on
    machines with device drivers that have been through a more rigorous
    validation cycle, particularly in the presence of large amounts of RAM.

    --
    Jake Oshins
    Hyper-V I/O Architect
    Windows Kernel Group

    This post implies no warranties and confers no rights.

    --------------------------------------------------------------


    "David Craig" <xxxxx@yoshimuni.com> wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    > There is the obvious solution which Microsoft will love. Just use Server
    > 2008 x86 where the license restrictions don't exist. Of course the memory
    > is still special in some ways, but there are documented ways to use it.
    >
    >
    > "Tim Roberts" <xxxxx@probo.com> wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    >> You wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Since another device driver on the market is doing it, this is not a an
    >>>acceptable answer to managment so perhaps undocumented techniques are the
    >>>way forward.
    >>
    >> The 32-bit versions of Windows XP and Vista are limited by licensing
    >> restrictions to using physical memory below the 4GB mark only. Even if
    >> it were possible to use that memory in Windows, it is not necessarily
    >> legal.
    >>
    >> The actual size of the PCI hole depends on your BIOS, but is typically a
    >> few dozen megabytes. I guess it's up to you to decide whether you want
    >> to risk a licensing violation over 25c worth of RAM, especially since
    >> people seem to be quickly migrating to 64-bit systems, where this
    >> restriction does not exist.
    >> --
    >> Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
    >> Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
    >>
    >
  • Bob_KroeterBob_Kroeter Member Posts: 65
    This is for a product similar to a ramdisk. The ability to utilize a gig of RAM that is sitting there unused is considered an important feature because it allow users to get a great deal more out of their system.
  • Alex_GrigAlex_Grig Member Posts: 3,238
    It's not worth it. All OEMs are shipping PCs with mostly 64-bit Windows
    installed. I'd say all 4GB systems are shipped with 64 bit OS.

    wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    > This is for a product similar to a ramdisk. The ability to utilize a gig
    > of RAM that is sitting there unused is considered an important feature
    > because it allow users to get a great deal more out of their system.
    >
    >
  • Bob_KroeterBob_Kroeter Member Posts: 65
    We do not have the luxury of only serving the OEM market. This is a retail product and there are substantial users who would purchase the product if it squeezes more out of their systems without upgrades. Getting this memory serves a sweet spot in todays market.
  • Don_Burn_1Don_Burn_1 Member Posts: 4,311
    And what will you do if some other product tries this trick. I have
    known of people who did this in highly controlled embedded environments,
    but even then some of them ran into problems. You say this is ramdisk
    like which means you a storing the users data, corruption should be your
    first concern, and there is no way to protect against someone else
    assuming the memory is available.


    Don Burn (MVP, Windows DKD)
    Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
    Website: http://www.windrvr.com
    Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: xxxxx@gmail.com [mailto:xxxxx@gmail.com]
    > Posted At: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:50 AM
    > Posted To: ntdev
    > Conversation: Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys
    > Subject: RE: Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys
    >
    > This is for a product similar to a ramdisk. The ability to utilize a
    > gig of RAM that is sitting there unused is considered an important
    > feature because it allow users to get a great deal more out of their
    > system.
    >
    >
    >
    > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
    > signature database 4949 (20100316) __________
    >
    > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
    >
    > http://www.eset.com
    >
  • Don_Burn_1Don_Burn_1 Member Posts: 4,311
    Then be sure to let us know what the product is. I want to tell all my
    clients to be sure to avoid this crap at all costs.


    Don Burn (MVP, Windows DKD)
    Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
    Website: http://www.windrvr.com
    Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr




    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: xxxxx@gmail.com [mailto:xxxxx@gmail.com]
    > Posted At: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:48 AM
    > Posted To: ntdev
    > Conversation: Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys
    > Subject: RE: Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys
    >
    > We do not have the luxury of only serving the OEM market. This is a
    > retail product and there are substantial users who would purchase the
    > product if it squeezes more out of their systems without upgrades.
    > Getting this memory serves a sweet spot in todays market.
    >
    >
    >
    > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
    > signature database 4949 (20100316) __________
    >
    > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
    >
    > http://www.eset.com
    >
  • OSR_Community_UserOSR_Community_User Member Posts: 110,218
    We do not have the luxury of only serving the OEM market. This is a retail product and there are substantial users who would purchase the product if it squeezes more out of their systems without upgrades. Getting this memory serves a sweet spot in todays market.

    Perhaps, but it doesn't appear to be a currently unoccupied 'sweet spot.' There's already at least one product that claims to be able to do this (>4GB & 3.2GB to 4GB), has gotten itself through the logo process, retails for about $60, supports formating as NTFS or any other Windows support FS and claims to be 'patent pending.' Taking all of that at face value, that's a lot of work for $60/copy, especially if you're playing catchup.

    mm
  • Tim_RobertsTim_Roberts Member - All Emails Posts: 12,715
    xxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
    > We do not have the luxury of only serving the OEM market. This is a retail product and there are substantial users who would purchase the product if it squeezes more out of their systems without upgrades. Getting this memory serves a sweet spot in todays market.
    >

    You are using a very unusual definition of the word "substantial". The
    number of users who (1) have 4GB RAM, (2) have a motherboard that has a
    PCI hole of sufficient size to make this worthwhile, (3) are running
    32-bit operating systems, (4) are absolutely unwilling to upgrade to Win
    7 64, and (5) have the technical wherewithal to know that there is a PCI
    hole must be vanishingly small.

    However, as they say, it's your funeral. Assuming you can learn that
    there is a PCI hole, how large the hole is, and where the memory has
    been mapped, all you have to do is map it in to kernel space, exactly
    like mapping a PCI board's BAR. At that point, it's yours to use
    (although, as Don quite correctly pointed out, it's also available to
    any other utility like yours, and there is no arbitration).

    --
    Tim Roberts, xxxxx@probo.com
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

    Tim Roberts, [email protected]
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

  • Bob_KroeterBob_Kroeter Member Posts: 65
    So is it a correct summary to say it will work fine unless another device driver doing the same thing is present?

    Measuring the market opportunity is not my department. I would prefer to let it go and focus on features that appeal to all users, but that doesn't matter because I am not a chief, just an indian. As there is a similar product out there grabbing this memory and has logo and wows their customers with it, I really do not seem to have any technical case to present against this feature.

    How can a driver detect this memory in preparation for mapping?
  • Doron_HolanDoron_Holan Member - All Emails Posts: 10,379
    A logo is not validation of the design, the logo tests are not omniscient to know that the driver is doing undocumented things. All it means in this case is that it passed a bunch of generic tests

    d

    -----Original Message-----
    From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of xxxxx@gmail.com
    Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:17 AM
    To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
    Subject: RE:[ntdev] Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys

    So is it a correct summary to say it will work fine unless another device driver doing the same thing is present?

    Measuring the market opportunity is not my department. I would prefer to let it go and focus on features that appeal to all users, but that doesn't matter because I am not a chief, just an indian. As there is a similar product out there grabbing this memory and has logo and wows their customers with it, I really do not seem to have any technical case to present against this feature.

    How can a driver detect this memory in preparation for mapping?


    ---
    NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

    For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
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    To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer
  • Don_Burn_1Don_Burn_1 Member Posts: 4,311
    Unless another driver uses it, or the BIOS is weird and uses it, or they
    have a cheap video device that is reported by the BIOS but may not show
    up in your calculation, and I am sure there are more that I forgot. As
    far as the chief and the Indian argument, if you are a professional it
    is your responsibility to point out all the problems.


    Don Burn (MVP, Windows DKD)
    Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
    Website: http://www.windrvr.com
    Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: xxxxx@gmail.com [mailto:xxxxx@gmail.com]
    > Posted At: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 3:17 AM
    > Posted To: ntdev
    > Conversation: Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys
    > Subject: RE: Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys
    >
    > So is it a correct summary to say it will work fine unless another
    > device driver doing the same thing is present?
    >
    > Measuring the market opportunity is not my department. I would prefer
    > to let it go and focus on features that appeal to all users, but that
    > doesn't matter because I am not a chief, just an indian. As there is a
    > similar product out there grabbing this memory and has logo and wows
    > their customers with it, I really do not seem to have any technical
    > case to present against this feature.
    >
    > How can a driver detect this memory in preparation for mapping?
    >
    >
    >
    > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
    > signature database 4951 (20100317) __________
    >
    > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
    >
    > http://www.eset.com
    >
  • Bob_KroeterBob_Kroeter Member Posts: 65
    "I want to tell all my clients to be sure to avoid this crap at all costs."

    Now I am curious about this. Since it was important enough to trumpet this announcement in this thread can you let us know the outcome now that a released driver doing this has been identified?
  • Alex_GrigAlex_Grig Member Posts: 3,238
    Any product that uses undocumented things should be avoided at all costs.

    wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    > "I want to tell all my clients to be sure to avoid this crap at all
    > costs."
    >
    > Now I am curious about this. Since it was important enough to trumpet this
    > announcement in this thread can you let us know the outcome now that a
    > released driver doing this has been identified?
    >
    >
  • Gary_Little-3Gary_Little-3 Member Posts: 1,208
    Granted and agreed, so if the OP will identify both theirs and their
    competitors product we will equally scoff, hurrah, and harangue both of
    them. The OP did miss the point. Don wants to know BOTH products to avoid
    BOTH, not just the OPs.

    The personal opinion of
    Gary G. Little



    -----Original Message-----
    From: xxxxx@lists.osr.com
    [mailto:xxxxx@lists.osr.com] On Behalf Of Alexander Grigoriev
    Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 9:22 AM
    To: Windows System Software Devs Interest List
    Subject: Re:[ntdev] Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys

    Any product that uses undocumented things should be avoided at all costs.

    <xxxxx@gmail.com> wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    > "I want to tell all my clients to be sure to avoid this crap at all
    > costs."
    >
    > Now I am curious about this. Since it was important enough to trumpet this

    > announcement in this thread can you let us know the outcome now that a
    > released driver doing this has been identified?
    >
    >



    ---
    NTDEV is sponsored by OSR

    For our schedule of WDF, WDM, debugging and other seminars visit:
    http://www.osr.com/seminars

    To unsubscribe, visit the List Server section of OSR Online at
    http://www.osronline.com/page.cfm?name=ListServer


    __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
    database 4955 (20100318) __________

    The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

    http://www.eset.com



    __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
    database 4955 (20100318) __________

    The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

    http://www.eset.com
  • Pavel_APavel_A Member Posts: 2,643
    "Alexander Grigoriev" <xxxxx@broadcom.com> wrote in message
    news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    > Any product that uses undocumented things should be avoided at all costs.

    Ts ts. A nice phrase, but.... are you ready to part with DebugView?
    Quite a lot undocumented things eventually became documented - see
    winternl.h.
    Yet other things still are not documented completely and accurately, so
    people dig and hack and manage to create interesting products anyway.
    These days, it's hard to make money without taking risks.
    And trust the management, they know better :)

    Regards,
    -- pa
  • Don_Burn_1Don_Burn_1 Member Posts: 4,311
    I draw the line at a couple of things:

    1. Is this for a test system (such as DebugView)?

    2. Is this for a well controlled environment, i.e. the hardware and the
    OS version are stable?

    Beyond the above, it has to depend on "how undocumented" something is.
    But if I have the choice of a product that uses undocumented and one
    that doesn't I agree with Alexander.

    As far as the OP's product, I hope we get a clue what it is, since I
    want nothing to do with that shit.


    Don Burn (MVP, Windows DKD)
    Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
    Website: http://www.windrvr.com
    Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr




    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Pavel A. [mailto:xxxxx@fastmail.fm]
    > Posted At: Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:04 PM
    > Posted To: ntdev
    > Conversation: Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys
    > Subject: Re: Get the unallocated memory on 32-bit Windows, 4GB sys
    >
    > "Alexander Grigoriev" <xxxxx@broadcom.com> wrote in message
    > news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    > > Any product that uses undocumented things should be avoided at all
    costs.
    >
    > Ts ts. A nice phrase, but.... are you ready to part with DebugView?
    > Quite a lot undocumented things eventually became documented - see
    > winternl.h.
    > Yet other things still are not documented completely and accurately,
    so
    > people dig and hack and manage to create interesting products anyway.
    > These days, it's hard to make money without taking risks.
    > And trust the management, they know better :)
    >
    > Regards,
    > -- pa
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
    signature
    > database 4956 (20100318) __________
    >
    > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
    >
    > http://www.eset.com
    >
  • Maxim_S._ShatskihMaxim_S._Shatskih Member Posts: 10,396
    > Since another device driver on the market is doing it, this is not a an acceptable answer to
    >managment so perhaps undocumented techniques are the way forward.

    You must know the exact upper bound of Windows-visible RAM, and then call MmMapIoSpace on the RAM above this bound.

    How will you know the bounds - I don't know. Undocumented.

    --
    Maxim S. Shatskih
    Windows DDK MVP
    xxxxx@storagecraft.com
    http://www.storagecraft.com
  • Maxim_S._ShatskihMaxim_S._Shatskih Member Posts: 10,396
    >upgrades. Getting this memory serves a sweet spot in todays market.

    Do you understand that, if there will be another product doing the same, the major interops with crashes are inevitable?

    --
    Maxim S. Shatskih
    Windows DDK MVP
    xxxxx@storagecraft.com
    http://www.storagecraft.com
  • Maxim_S._ShatskihMaxim_S._Shatskih Member Posts: 10,396
    > The actual size of the PCI hole depends on your BIOS, but is typically a few dozen megabytes.

    Down to 3.2GB on some motherboards.

    --
    Maxim S. Shatskih
    Windows DDK MVP
    xxxxx@storagecraft.com
    http://www.storagecraft.com
  • Bob_KroeterBob_Kroeter Member Posts: 65
    "As far as the OP's product, I hope we get a clue what it is, since I want nothing to do with that shit."

    Sounds as if you are back peddling and will not warn all of your clients about the shipping product. No biggie, just checking.
  • Aram_Havarneanu-2Aram_Havarneanu-2 Member Posts: 161
    On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Pavel A. <xxxxx@fastmail.fm> wrote:
    > "Alexander Grigoriev" <xxxxx@broadcom.com> wrote in message
    > news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    >>
    >> Any product that uses undocumented things should be avoided at all costs.
    >
    > Ts ts. A nice phrase, but.... are you ready to part with DebugView?
    > Quite a lot undocumented things eventually became documented - see
    > winternl.h.
    > Yet other things still are not documented completely and accurately, so
    > people dig and hack and manage to create interesting products anyway.
    > These days, it's hard to make money without taking risks.
    > And trust the management, they know better :)

    DebugView is not production ready kernel mode software for
    heterogeneous and generic environment. I think that for debugging and
    for learning stuff it is perfectly acceptable to use undocumented
    features, write drivers in ASM, hook the kernel etc.

    When it comes to delivering software to users, you must play by the
    book in the most strict sense.

    --
    Aram Hăvărneanu
  • anton_bassovanton_bassov Member Posts: 4,825
    >Since another device driver on the market is doing it, this is not a an acceptable answer
    > to managment so perhaps undocumented techniques are the way forward.

    Ironically you have just presented a key argument against use of "unconventional" stuff - if driver X is doing it and driver Y attempts to do the same (they have no chance to coordinate their "efforts", do they), what is going to happen to the target machine???


    Anton Bassov
  • Pavel_APavel_A Member Posts: 2,643
    By which book, please tell me? By the WDK documentation?
    It is not complete and totally correct, as everyone who ever tried something
    not trivial might learn.

    There are certain well known don'ts like hooking.
    But sometimes we have to rely on results of our own research, that are not
    documented at all - not as do's neither as don'ts.
    It is in a gray area, risky. There are certain known means to contain the
    risk
    and make it acceptable.
    DebugView is a small example of something not readily taken from a book -
    it was delivered to users first, and book writers explained it later.
    Same with CD & DVD recording software, same with P2P networking,
    same with NTFS hacks (Partition Magic, Ghost), VMware, and many many others.

    Management knows what customers are willing to pay for. This is their job.
    Developer's job is to do what management wants, and do it well enough :)

    Regards,
    --pa

    "Aram Havarneanu" <xxxxx@mgk.ro> wrote in message news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    > On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Pavel A. <xxxxx@fastmail.fm> wrote:
    >> "Alexander Grigoriev" <xxxxx@broadcom.com> wrote in message
    >> news:xxxxx@ntdev...
    >>>
    >>> Any product that uses undocumented things should be avoided at all
    >>> costs.
    >>
    >> Ts ts. A nice phrase, but.... are you ready to part with DebugView?
    >> Quite a lot undocumented things eventually became documented - see
    >> winternl.h.
    >> Yet other things still are not documented completely and accurately, so
    >> people dig and hack and manage to create interesting products anyway.
    >> These days, it's hard to make money without taking risks.
    >> And trust the management, they know better :)
    >
    > DebugView is not production ready kernel mode software for
    > heterogeneous and generic environment. I think that for debugging and
    > for learning stuff it is perfectly acceptable to use undocumented
    > features, write drivers in ASM, hook the kernel etc.
    >
    > When it comes to delivering software to users, you must play by the
    > book in the most strict sense.
    >
    > --
    > Aram HÄfvÄfrneanu
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